Brewers Petition to rreturn brewing to its previous (pre patch) state. What we want: 1.) Feirce Brew makes 5 instead of 2 on a success 2.) Brewing costs lowered (or) Merchant prices raised so that it is cheaper to brew a drink than to purchase one 3.) The Compendium Quest fixed 4.) To be notified BEFOREHAND of any impending changes 5.) Verant to acnolage our requests ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 2:36 PM EST Email address: roleplay@harb.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Chris Holden visitor_name_Station: Thaladar visitor_name_Character: Ranian Comment: Please stop putting in "features" and not telling the players what you are going to change. This is very annoying. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 2:48 PM EST Email address: larry@acts.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Larry Palmer visitor_name_Station: Distorzion visitor_name_Character: Sinrakin, gnomish enchanter of Tarew Marr Comment: - Brewing is now utterly pointless, and the hours I spent learning it simply allowed other players to pass me in experience - unless you are a smith, or a jeweler with a large guild to twink you, there is no player economy. Baking and Brewing had somewhat balanced things recently, but now it's back to the status quo. - It's extremely unreasonable to make changes like this without warning people first that they're going to be changed, so as to allow them to dispose of pre-bought ingrediants, or to warn them not to invest in learning it. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 2:57 PM EST Email address: draoidh@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Connar O'Morris visitor_name_Station: Rannoc visitor_name_Character: AnDagda Comment: Some of the items we use to make our brews do not add up right. Like the Cask, I would think that this Cask is bigger then a Pint. If I was to write the code for this trade I would do the following. One Cask would yield 4 Short Beers which would make it about a one gallon Cask. The yield would very with skill level so someone who is just starting out would only get one Beer per success where a master would get four Beers. This would make the art of brewing Short Beer profitable when you are 3/4 the way to being a Master and would reward those who worked so hard to be a Master by making it more profitable. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:01 PM EST Email address: cody@karat.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: cody kidwel visitor_name_Character: henini Comment: Brewing is the only trade skill that no mater what makes no money. 1st we should be able to make money out of brewing, it's the only reason of it existing since it serves no other use. 2nd if it where to be useless they wouldn't made it, it would have stop in the hands of the project manager. 3rd merchant sell it so low because it's useless. witch brings us back to no1. and now would be the time to say it's broken, since now you broke it, a little like fletching. And for those who think trade skill shouldn't make any money, potting makes money (to npc), jewelcraft makes money(to pc), fletching is more or less a trade skill but anyhow makes money (from pc), baking is said to make some nice money (from npc) (and pc), now brewing makes no money from the pc because like potting is useless to a pc and makes no money from npc either. Brewing should be a great money maker because you can't brew any where, in fact it's quite hard to brew and raise money since ingrediant's are not availeble every where and brew ceg's are required not like sewing that you can cary your kite with you. so you can't do any thing ealse when your brewing. By that being worth the money it gives. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:07 PM EST Email address: cotto004@bama.ua.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Jennifer Donaldson visitor_name_Station: nevyn72 visitor_name_Character: Lanye Comment: (None) ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:09 PM EST Email address: munchmo@yahoo.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Loren Dietz visitor_name_Station: munchmo visitor_name_Character: Belwit Comment: The compendium quest needs fixin' and the prices the NPC sells alcohol for should be upped. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:10 PM EST Email address: dtruitt@ch2m.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Darla Truitt visitor_name_Station: LuckyDwarf visitor_name_Character: Tanana Comment: I would say there is little purpose to make brew if you can buy it significantly cheaper from an NPC. The items to make the brews and maybe even the cost the bar keeps sell the brews need to be adjusted such that the cost to make the brew is slightly lower than what the merchant will pay for it. This allows below average characters not able to make much of a profit for they fail more times than not and master brewers to make a small profit. The merchants should at least sell their brews higher than what the items cost to make the brew or it is impossible for players to make any profit and hence why bother...to buy from NPC is cheaper than to make it yourself! I hope that brewing will at some time have some purpose. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:10 PM EST Email address: schoty@wwc.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Tyson visitor_name_Station: CodeColdC visitor_name_Character: Venlaan Comment: Leave it the same. Your economy is all messed up anyhow. And you don't make THAT much money. Give up! ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:07 PM EST Email address: trevalien@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Nicholas Amante visitor_name_Station: Trevelien visitor_name_Character: Trevalien Comment: I just spent all of my money becoming a master brewer! Now the skill is worthless to me! My inventoy is full of brewing suplys that cost more than the brews will sell for! ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:17 PM EST Email address: emanon@wonderdigital.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Matthew Gwin visitor_name_Station: Draichen visitor_name_Character: Ainvar Comment: Brewing takes a fair amount of money and time to develop, and after investing the effort to become an adequate brewmaster, the reward of making fierce brew seemed fair, certainly not unbalanced. Trade skills should be viable provided the proper investment has gone into developing the skill. Please reconsider this decision and restore Brewing to its previous state. Thanks for your consideration, Matthew Gwin ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:18 PM EST Email address: reedjam99@yahoo.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Jim Reed visitor_name_Station: reedjam visitor_name_Character: Kleinman Comment: Ok, brewing needed a bit of a fix, but this is just too drastic! Don't make the skill worthless! ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:25 PM EST Email address: cbuckbee@tca.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Christopher Buckbee visitor_name_Station: DarkKnight75 visitor_name_Character: Telthar Comment: This needs to be fixed. Brewing didn't produce that much of a profit to make Verant need to gimp it. Put it back the way it was. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:32 PM EST Email address: horadrim@u-n-i.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Dan visitor_name_Station: radulukan2 visitor_name_Character: Spiro Comment: I would like to see NPC brew prices increased, so that PC prewers might be able to make some coin out of it. I have a character that is a jeweler and she makes a a few gold selling back to the NPC. Granted, she has 116 CHA and a friend cast Sympathetic Aura on me, but even with out it i can make about 7 silver off a silver bloodstone ring ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 3:46 PM EST Email address: fputnam@uswest.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Frank Putnam visitor_name_Station: FPutnam visitor_name_Character: Abbot Comment: You BROKE brewing. Why brew if there's NO advantage? ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:00 PM EST Email address: BuddahTBC@netscape.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Brian Walter visitor_name_Station: BuddahTBC visitor_name_Character: Kintara Comment: When you get your skills high enough in any of the other trades you can at least break even, or close to even and continue to improve the skill. Its bad enough that there is no brewing book and all the other classes have multiple books, but at least makeit a usable trade skill. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:03 PM EST Email address: steveq@easystreet.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Stephen Quarterman visitor_name_Station: Albereth visitor_name_Character: Albereth Comment: While it is nice that the abundant amount of platinum that could be made by brewing has been fixed, I feel that this skill has taken a step backwards. One way to cure this would be to raise the prices that NPCs sell their ales/wines. It costs me 8 silver to make short beer so why would anyone want to buy it if they can get it from an NPC for 3 silver. There really needs to be a reworking of the pricing on NPCs so that once again those of us in the brewing trade, which I took up as I have been brewing in RL for 8 years, can make a living of sorts. True, most money should be made from adventuring, but most if not all of the other trade skills are profitable by selling to NPCs and this is NOT the case with brewing. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:06 PM EST Email address: Lopster1@aol.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Milo Loop visitor_name_Station: Sirlip visitor_name_Character: Sirlip Comment: (None) ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:17 PM EST Email address: sturmtower@aol.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: John Buenavides visitor_name_Station: JanusBemus visitor_name_Character: Stormtower Comment: The last time I checked, Verant has not fixed the Brewer's Compendium Quest. What this means is that the brewers are stuck with the four brews that are in the Brewer's Limericks (the ONLY book for brewing, which is ONLY found in Kaladim, which is a city where there are NO INGREDIENTS for the brews described in the book) A whole bunch of players have gathered together to find the "secret brews" ... and came up with a couple at first: Tumpy's Tonic, and Fierce Brew. Both were relatively simple -- Fierce Brew was easy to find simply because it is the sum total of the four brews in the limericks. It also proved to be the brew to reach "Master" level. So why is it that -- with the current patch -- none of the brews, not even the one that needs a master level to trivialize -- can sell to either NPC or PC for a profit? If you can't sell a brew for a profit, what is brewing for? Fierce Brew was the ONLY profitable recipe in current knowledge. If Verant had put it down from 5 to 3, it would be marginally profitable. However, a 2 per combine at even 90% success rate would result in a loss. And I've never heard of a 90% success rate at any trade! I demand more brewing books. I demand the books be available at more places. I demand for recipes that are saleable to PCs, let there be some magic in brewing! We the Customer have been ignored and abused too long. We try to play your game, but if you change the rules every time we win, then damn it! We are not happy! Thank you for listening. If you have any sense of decency, you will answer us back with something more than "We received your feedback, we are looking into the problem." ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:18 PM EST Email address: godleye@mail.brody.ecu.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Evie Ward Godley visitor_name_Station: godleye visitor_name_Character: Sunwolf Comment: Please fix brewing. After this last patch it really has been destroyed for us. Come on. You fix one thing and break another. Why can't we make 5 fierce brews? ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:19 PM EST Email address: rschulte@mail.trib.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Richard B Schulte II visitor_name_Station: elitedragon visitor_name_Character: Bellero Comment: At least make the trade not lose money making the brews as a Master. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:25 PM EST Email address: remlin@s-way.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Chris Drew visitor_name_Station: funeral_parlor visitor_name_Character: Remlin Comment: The NPC should not be selling for less than it costs to make it. We should be able to sell it to NPCs for a slight profit but more than 1 silver, per success! ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:29 PM EST Email address: storm@san.rr.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Keith C. Estanol visitor_name_Station: beknar visitor_name_Character: Tango Brewer?: Above Average-Master Comment: Why are all other trade skils profitable while brewing is not? Please fix this. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:32 PM EST Email address: henriverdoux@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Adrian Burgess visitor_name_Station: SpookyElectric visitor_name_Character: Henri Comment: The prices the NPC's sell for need to be increased with brews, or brewing ingredients decreased, or give us more bottles per success. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 4:53 PM EST Email address: wadams@qx.ent Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: William Adams visitor_name_Station: modemman26 visitor_name_Character: Bedore and Semina Comment: Please bring back the quantities that can be produced and make the components higher cost or the vendor buy price lower. I want to be able to make quantities of brew for the fun aspect of brewing. If you want to stop people for twinking then make brewing a skill that you can not get until you reach a certain level say level 8. That way it will only be used by people interested in it for fun. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:01 PM EST Email address: addbo@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Vincent Li visitor_name_Station: Addbo visitor_name_Character: Teradin Comment: The Companies name I believe is Verant... but anyways... I don't know why you have trade skills if they're useless... and I have no clue why only 2 seem to be profitable. You might as well just force everyone to become a Master smith and Jeweler. Aren't trades just another word for job? I mean shouldn't you make money doing a job?(not lose it even when you're a "master") Why wasn't it on the patch message? Why didn't you tell us what you changed? Or even why you changed it? I don't know your reasons... but I think that every trade skill should be profitable... you could have just made the price people get paid by the NPC's less or something if you really think it was that unbalanced(As it was I was only pulling in 7 plat an hour anyways). It really sucks to have spent so much time and effort into a trade skill only to have it made useless by a patch. You have wasted many people's time and effort... that adds up to alot of money.(if they got paid by the hour) I want brewing back to what is was last patch... ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:09 PM EST Email address: plang@servpronet.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Paul Lang visitor_name_Station: plang visitor_name_Character: Stryf Comment: Fine tuning skills is acceptable but to totally rework an aspect without even having the courtesy to notify us is unacceptable. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:19 PM EST Email address: mmatta@earthlink.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Matthew Matta visitor_name_Station: _visigoth_ visitor_name_Character: Rahu Comment: Now I do agree that brewing was too profitable in comparison with the other trade skills. With this recent patch you have taken all the profits out of brewing. I think that 4 casks per batch is a more reasonable change. Or at least provide more receipies to increase our skills, since the last I heard the Compendium Quest was still borken. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:26 PM EST Email address: CMusson@PoBoxes.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Chris Musson visitor_name_Station: CMusson visitor_name_Character: Clanggedin Comment: Brewing should at least be a break even skill. The most important thing is that the NPC Merchants should sell for MORE than it costs to make brews. Ale should be worth the sum of it's components, plus a little more on top...that is what the NPC merchants should be selling for MINIMUM. At least give brewers the opportunity to undercut the taverns. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:28 PM EST Email address: Atijafe@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Michael Loper visitor_name_Station: bamalope visitor_name_Character: Atijafe Comment: Last night (July 13) I spent 4 Platinum getting my brewing skill from 83 to 103. I barely broke even and it took me a tedious hour. I had done this in hopes of making a profit, since pottery and tailoring were not working out. Since you have back doored us with this change, I doubt I will use the skills anymore and feel as though the game has been relegated to hack and slash. Furthermore, the way the patch was handled was awful. Every other major patch change had plenty of forewarning from the test server posts. This appeared to happen at the last minute. I expect the people who pay me to screw me, not the game I pay to play. Michael Loperaka aka Atijafe ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:30 PM EST Email address: rossjoh1@pilot.msu.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: John Ross visitor_name_Station: WolvenOne visitor_name_Character: WolfHeart Comment: Verant, if are going to change something like a trade THAT drastically there must, must, MUST, MUST be forewarning! I spent 20 plat last night on beer equipment, only to find out that my entire day today will be spent making worthless beer JUST SO I CAN CUT MY LOSSES... at a 90 charisma and 135 brewing, which is above and beyond what they call "Master Brewer". 5 plat and a LOT of time will now be completely wasted. If you were going to change brewing and make it useless to sell to NPC's, fine... but there was absolutely NO WARNING and NOT EVEN a short message regarding any trade skill changes on the patch message! Is this what Brad calls "improved communication"????? The lack of any forewarning on a change as large as this is absolutely unforgiveable. That is now two strikes for Verant. One more and I'll be closing my account and will never buy another Verant product again. John ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:29 PM EST Email address: copprof@mindspring.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Dawn Wilke visitor_name_Station: wilke99 visitor_name_Character: Cynarra Comment: Changing a trade skill so it is no longer profitable to a master is ludicrus. Trade skills should make some good profit by master level. I use to use my brew skill to pay for spells. You have such high inflation in the game that anyone under level 20 cannot afford to purchase spells and supplies without relying on trade skills or twinking from other players. At master level, all trade skills should make a nice profit. The new patch destroyed that for brewing and fletching. Please fix it. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 5:52 PM EST Email address: meltzer@rohan.sdsu.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Dustin Meltzer visitor_name_Station: meltzer22 visitor_name_Character: Xniu Comment: That was pretty lame! ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 6:00 PM EST Email address: asunder@q7.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Jeremy Rios visitor_name_Station: 4sund3r visitor_name_Character: Ferkl Comment: I don't approve of the change. If there is more to the change than we know, you should calm us with hints of that. Also there was no mention of this change in the news when the game was patched. This leads me to belive that you have something against us brewers. You put it in the game, you made it profitable only through selling to NPC's, you take it away without warning, and you expect us to exept it? I don't think so. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 6:01 PM EST Email address: chuckboy42@hotmail.comS ubject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Jeff Harris visitor_name_Station: chuckboy visitor_name_Character: Lloyd Comment: I just started brewing recently, after the "trade skills don't suck anymore" patch, because it seemed to be a reasonably profitable trade and because it would be fun to give drinks to my friends. *JUST* as soon as I reached the skill where i should have been breaking even, you go and change it so Ol Tumjin's only makes 2 instead of 5. So basically you hoodwinked me into believing the skill was worthwhile, convinced me to waste 10 plat (a nice chunk o change at lvl 9), and then pulled the rug from under me. Why did you bother to fix the trade at all? This was worse for me than if you had done nothing. It mounts to "we fixed it so trade skills don't suck! Spend money on them and see! ....HaHa! Now we'll make them suck again after you have wasted time and money practicing them!" It was a bait and switch ploy of the worst kind. Nice way to treat your customers. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 6:12 PM EST Email address: prospero@videotron.ca Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: David Rossi visitor_name_Station: Gugldorf visitor_name_Character: Shanto Comment: I'm not too upset about the removal of profit, sure even a little profit would be better than what you put in. What I don't like it that you didn't say anything, if this keeps happening I will cancel my account. Don't forget, people like us are paying your salary, if you don't like it, let us vote on it. It's not YOUR game anymore, it's OURS. Yours truly, David Rossi ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 6:21 PM EST Email address: gr8mutato@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Character: Mutato Comment: Make it worth while wether it be profitable or worth role playing, the ratios are all screwed up. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 6:29 PM EST Email address: kdinkc@kc.rr.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Ken Dyke visitor_name_Station: Darkfeather visitor_name_Character: Darkfeathr Comment: A Trade is ones livelyhood. A way to make more for yourself. Please, keep it proffitable. I like the fierce brew set at 5 per shot. It is a good way to make some needed cash, and you still have to work your ass off to get it. If this has changed as rumored, at least make some higher level brew that will make good money. Another request, some brew that can be made in mass quantity for the parties. I enjoy making money at a trade, and I really enjoy being able to afford to make hundreds of drinks for my guild parties. EQ has its problems, but it's still the best game I've ever played. Thanks Verant ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 7:38 PM EST Email address: caross@utdallas.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Chris Ross visitor_name_Station: Frigoris visitor_name_Character: Uthdar Comment: Thanks alot . How else can a cleric afford armor and spells, and work in a roleplay skill eh?Tell me that and I won't complain anymore. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 7:55 PM EST Email address: ctv@cybertron.at Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Robert Wimmer visitor_name_Station: bertoxxoulus visitor_name_Character: bierfrau Comment: THAT SUX. I want kill around the clock. Have THEIR programmers to pay Varant for their working? Thats what brew masters have to do now. Pay for working. Really cool. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 7:55 PM EST Email address: matt@internetworkings.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Matthew K. Hargra vesvisitor_name_Station: solinear visitor_name_Character: Orinstahl Comment: I have been playing since Beta (3) and am very disappointed by the fact that you have taken the only 'trade' skill that was worth a damn (without investing rediculous amounts of money) and castrated it. If you wanted to make it harder to make that much money with brewing, why didn't you just make the skill improvements come less often instead of this castration. Thanks a lot, time to kill-steal! Ya gotta love this try to make our beloved EQ more like UO. ============================================================================ Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 Time: 11:31 PM EST Email address: hanwookie@hawaii.rr.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Vicki Olmos visitor_name_Station: Abbaden visitor_name_Character: Caleli Comment: Revert Feirce Brew back to what it was allow us to make a profit from brewing, the way it is now it is impossible to make money from brewing. Also, fix the brewing skill so that we are able to excel past level 135. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 1:00 AM EST Email address: blizzard15@mindspring.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Derek Magnuson visitor_name_Station: Dragon8303 visitor_name_Character: Krazer Comment: We need a LOT more recipes. We need to have different brews make different stats go up so they can be like an elixer/potion. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 2:42 AM EST Email address: calimar@panacom.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: James Davis visitor_name_Station: Calimar1 visitor_name_Character: Ganeorn Comment: I would simply like my production costs to allow me to sell to players cheaper than they could buy from merchants. If the merchant buys from me a small profit but an oppurtunity to make money from the players on my server like the other trade skills ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 4:48 AM EST Email address: adamw@lighthouse-sys.co.uk Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Adam Warland visitor_name_Station: awarland visitor_name_Character: Aeden Comment: Two things have really bothered me about the 13/7/99 change to brewing: 1. It has turned what was a useful skill in a worthless one. Not only from a profit point of view (that is minor) but it has taken all of the fun out of the trade. I used to like to carry a stack of brews around with me handing them out to just about anyone. It's no longer worth the time/money to do so. I might as well buy the brews, or tell them to buy there own. 2. The underhanded way in which you have ruined the trade is unacceptable. No mention of it in the patch message at all. Why on earth did you change the skill for the better by giving us a convenient way to brew multiple beers and then only a few weeks later take it back out again? This sort of action makes me think twice about doing anything in this game for fear that the next time there's a patch all my hard work will be undone. I think it is important for you to remember that this is a 'game' and it is supposed to be 'fun'. However, your recent actions are constantly pointing towards the fact that you have no intention of making the game fun, or even care if your customers are enjoying it. I am severely disapointed. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 7:48 AM EST Email address: jpd2739@acs.tamu.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: J D visitor_name_Station: Slimicus visitor_name_Character: Slimicus Comment: Oh man I agree 100% all the way!!!! This is a message I sent to Verant.. through /feedback, although I doubt it will actually be looked at... Lets go ahead and look to see just how unprofitable brewing has become.. we'll start at how it used to be: ASSUMPTION: At level 135 (Master Brewing Status) Probability of brewing a success is 3/4 or a 75% chance. This can be proven through trials.. basically... If I buy the following ingredients: 20Hops 20Malt 20Barley 20Yeast 20Cask I can produce 80 Barrels of Ol'Tojims at 5 Barrels/Success Expected Value: E(X) = (Amount Given Per Success * Probability of Success) + (Amount Loss Per Failure * Probability of Failure) Expected Value can be used to determine things such as if a "game" is fair. For example, a fair game has an expected value of 0 which means that on average, someone can expect to make 0 units of profit/loss. Short Example: Gambling - Guess the number I'm thinking between 1 and 4. If you guess right, I give you 3 dollars, if you guess wrong, you give me 1. E(X) = (3 * .25) + (-1 * .75) {-1 because you loose a dollar if you guess wrong.}E(X) = 0 that means this is a true fair game of chance.. no one is taking advantage of the other... .ok enough of the statistics lesson... anyways ---- Here is the price to brew.. (NOTE: These prices were obtained while I was using CHA buffs to better them.. a few copper less) Hops: 1.7sp Malt: 1.7sp Barley: 1.7sp Yeast: 1.7sp Cask: 3.3sp Total:10.1sp/attempt So.. it costs 1 gold 1 copper for me to attempt each barrel of Fierce Brew. Fierce Brew: 5.3sp * 5Barrels For each successful brew I received 26.5sp(2 gold 6 silver 5 copper) My net income per successful fierce brew: 16.4sp(1 gold 6 silver 4 copper) So.. if I'm succesful, I make 16.4sp, if I fail, I loose 10.1sp Under the above assumption, E(X) is:(16.4 * .75) + (-10.1 * .25) = 9.775 E(X) = 9.8sp This shows that when getting a 3/4 chance of success at master status (which has been earned..) I should expect to make 9.8sp on average from this type of brew.. at 5 barrels.... now lets look what verant decided to do to us... Everything is the same, except the amount I gain:Fierce Brew: 5.3sp * 2Barrels For each successful brew I received 10.6sp(1 gold 6 silver) My net income per successful fierce brew: .5sp(5 copper) So.. if I'm succesful, I make .5sp, if I fail, I loose 10.1sp Under the above assumption, E(X) is:(.5 * .75) + (-10.1 * .25) = -2.15 E(X) = -2.15sp (In gambling, this would be a highly rigged game in favor of the house.. hmm.. sounds a bit similar..) This shows that when getting a 3/4 chance of success at master status (which has been earned..) I should expect to LOOSE 2sp 2 copper on average from this type of brew.. Normally.. somoene would say.. "well.. the least they could do is make the expected value 0 so it's a break even task.." well.. no.. that's just plane wrong.. it WAS that way when I was level 80... and the chance of success was lower than 75%.. but i've spent time and effort at becoming a master brewer.. i have raised the expected value myself by raising my skill (and thus raising the percent chance of success itself..) The brew decision was wrong.. i hope this does not go unnoticed..J D Slimicus (Cazic-Thule)Master Brewer jpd2739@unix.tamu.edu ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 8:37 AM EST Email address: calrone@xsa.ch Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Patrick Traber visitor_name_Station: traber76 visitor_name_Character: Calrone Comment: If I want to make some money, I could use trade skills or even camp some Dervs. After the last patch trade skills are no more here to make money. So I probably will start camping again.Is this what you want to stop camping ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 11:03 AM EST Email address: bitsy@nyct.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Liz visitor_name_Station: bitsy visitor_name_Character: Sylv Comment: C'mon...A bartender has to make a living... All my other friends with trade skills make money... ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 3:52 PM EST Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Character: Bukkorosu (Xegony) Comment: I just don't understand why Verant would do this. What is the point of becoming a master at any skill if you can't make a profit off your time and work. Whats worse is the fact that all of us master brewers have spent precious time and money to become masters since the possibilty to make some (not much) money at this skill existed. Thanks to the changes it is no longer possible to make money at brewing. I guess it is back to over camped Dervs to make money. And the simple fact that there was NO mention of the changes in the last patch message is totally unacceptable. It is this kind of action on Verants part that makes me leary about working at another trade skill. I'll become a master and then Verant will change it as well. No thank you. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 4:05 PM EST Email address: mattman@provalue.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Mathew Wyckoff visitor_name_Station: PFirebaugh visitor_name_Character: Salmonius Comment: Why do you feel that there should be no profit in trade skills? When we find a way in the game to do something besides kill monsters, and be profitable doing it, it seems Verant wants to cut it out of the game. Maybe you all made a mistake and too much money was being received for the work done, but instead of cutting the profit down to a respectable level, you make it where there is not only no money to be made, but it is a negative action. So what the economic structure is saying now is if someone is a Master brewer, all we get to do is lose the hard earned money. That the sum of the ingredients is worth more than the time that we put into making the product. Every time I see Verant or their agents reacting to something in the game, I see vengance. If someone has a name that a given GM does not feel is a "roleplaying" name, they do not approach the individual manner, they pop in and force a change no matter what the surroundings, whether or not the player is in a battle or not. Yet the guidlines for what is or is not appropriate is not spelled out anywhere. It seems that the perception of the GM is all that is required. This means it is not a stable game environment. I can understand, that you want to have a specific game environment, but when you see a problem (from your perspective) you jump in and make changes to better suit whatever it is that you want. But what you (Verant) wants is not spelled out, is not even put within a set of guidelines for players to follow. And you also warn us that if we take advantage of "bugs" we can lose our license to even play your game. I feel that the changes made to the game need to be done in a more professional manner. I have not seen any professionalism in the way that the game is being done, updated, supported, or managed. The only professionalism I have seen is in the marketing of the game. All I can do is complain that these changes Verant makes are unjust but the feeling I get is that Verant doesn't care, that the players views do not mean anything to Verant. If players could host their own servers, then a group could select what things they want and don't want and if players don't like changes, or way that the game is being managed the players would have a choice but by limiting the playing field to your servers and only online, you make that aspect impossible. The change in brewing, (with no prior warning or messages) is in my opinion just the latest decision by Verant that has shown how little the players views on the game really play in how the game is run. Even if Verant changes the brewing back to a profitable trade skill, it will only be a bandaide, not a solution. I feel that Verant should really re-evaluate how they view the people who are paying hard earned real life money to continue to play this game. It is not an easy job, to tell what should and shouldn't be changed but the players who are actually playing the game should have some voice in what changes are made. Try playing a game of D&D, be the DM, or whatever. When you make a changes in the game that your players don't like, you won't be playing that game long will you? Now throw in on top that the players are paying for the right to even play, and you can see how tempers are going to flare. Give the players some respect... C'mon man the patch summary said nothing about a problem with brewing much less that any changes were made...... ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 4:26 PM EST Email address: ragenj@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: DTM visitor_name_Station: dchristjohn visitor_name_Character: Lokker Comment: Like it wasn't already hard enough for the untwinked average player to get money for spells, weapons and such without you screwing up brewing. Fix it! ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 5:33 PM EST Email address: janders@iamerica.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: James Anders visitor_name_Station: Daeloth visitor_name_Character: Daeloth Comment: Perhaps Profitable is not the best term to use but even at a skill of 135 I can't break even making Fierce Brew due to failures and the new 2 count end product. If you intend to change the skill then how about perhaps allowing for a higher yield of the various brews upon a success for the master brewers. For example, lets say I was going to brew up some short ales. Normally this only yields 1 brew. Now what if we were to modify brewing in such a way that once your skill level reached an appreciable point you started to yield 2 short ales per success and further down the road(higher skill lvl) you produce 3 per success and so on. This would allow us master brewers to still put out large quantities of alchohol for parties and getting friends drunk and so on and on. Also... PLEASE!!!! FIX THE COMPENDIUM QUEST. I am sure that there are more profitable brews that have yet to be found which is why you cut back the fierce brew output per success, but until these brews! are implemented the cut to fierce brew is not going to help us any. I have heard about the famed "Something colder" and heard that there is actually a new NPC in Halas and I intend to go and check this out and see about this new book... perhaps this will be more helpful, but at any rate that is my two coppers for what they are worth Daeloth ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 6:00 PM EST Email address: fencer@wt.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Martin Stringer visitor_name_Station: Felwar visitor_name_Character: narff Comment: two of my friends that have begun new human characters just before the cutoff for profitibility of the brewing skill were using the profit from brewing to fund the exorbidant cost of becoming a smith and seemstress. this is now impossible to do, now that brewing has been reduced to 'something to do to waste time and money'. since your discouraging players to use the trade skills, as per the bug in baking that i have heard of (can't make dough, and cookie making bug), now removing profit from brewing and sky rocket cost of becoming a smith or taylor...why not just remove them from the game. or perhaps just make mettal bits cost 200 plat to buy. of course that leaves jewelers, but i'm sure you'll think of some way to make them useless too. if your going to have a game that is extremely cash poor, where getting enough scraped up to buy anything is difficult...with the premise that player characters with trade skills can sell wares for cheeper to other players. well if you make the trade skills either preventatively expensive to either do, or to get high enough to be able to make desired wares, what you wind up with is a total lack of intrest in trying them...why bother spending hugh amounts on getting this skill up when, by the time you can use the skill effectively your high enough level that money is no longer an issue. so either make the trade skills worth doing ie making a profit when high enough level in that skill, or take them out of the game and make stuff cheeper to buy from venders. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 6:26 PM EST Email address: bingo@inconnu.isu.edu Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Charles Bingham visitor_name_Station: Dweefle visitor_name_Character: Fyrcynis Comment: (None) ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 6:28 PM EST Email address: fitzroy69@yahoo.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Dustin visitor_name_Station: Fitzroy69 visitor_name_Character: Belsarius Comment: I spent a lot of time and effort getting this skill to 135. I hope that I could at least make a profit on it or be allowed to make potions so I could sell to players. Let's put it this way no one I know buys alcohol from anyone, why should they buy it from a brewer who would have to charge them at least 3 times the cost from a npc to buy it even if they were interested. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 6:35 PM EST Email address: mikk@sprint.ca Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Michael visitor_name_Station: Lee visitor_name_Character: Swin Comment: I spent 7pp(all my money) the day before the patch was installed. I find this sickening. It was a complete waste of my time, and I know many others, just like me, who have spent every copper they had on brewing, the night before the patch.Please make brewing profitable again. Swin ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 6:33 PM EST Email address: hillclan1@juno.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Ben Hill visitor_name_Station: Stuglug visitor_name_Character: Tetin Comment: You just made brewing a useless skill. Make it either tougher to be a brewer or make the drinks have some value in the game...example: Bog juice+cure poison. Make us brewer be able to take pride in what we do. Brewing is also to tough to become a master at. Smithing takes a ton of money from what I have heard and brewing took me 10pp to become 135 skill. That is just sad. Another idea...make a skill cap on brewing. It must directly relate to the alcohol tolerance of an individual. That would make the financial part of the skill raised so that a person level 3 could become a master brewer. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 7:10 PM EST Email address: duke_of_bass@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Bob Chicago visitor_name_Station: Gotbells395 visitor_name_Character: Tave Comment: You can't fix one thing and not another. If you are going to stop making brewing profitable by selling to NPCs then you have to make it profitable somewhere else i.e. special stat bonuses from alcohol or AT actually working. It has to be done in one blow not first we make brewing worthless to sell to NPCs then we make it profitable by selling to PCs 6 months later ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 7:42 PM EST Email address: xikago@gtemail.net Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Miles Calunod visitor_name_Station: chycago visitor_name_Character: Xikago Comment: I am rather dismayed at the unannounced change in the brewing skill. I can understand why there was no prior notification about lowering the profitibility of the brewing trade, but I cannot fathom why there has been no press release to let players know what is going on. I can't say I'm happy about the change as there are far too many people out and about when I play to reasonably loot "good" creatures to try and continue advancing my character's expensive trade skill (smithing and fletching). However you own the game and have made decision, please just talk about it at least. Left to their imaginations people come up with the most amazing and negative things. Thanks for you time. Miles Calunod ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 8:55 PM EST Email address: wporter@tacobell.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Wes Porter visitor_name_Station: Weskel visitor_name_Character: Westor Comment: Why would you make one of the few enjoyable skill ueseless? I would highly suggest making brewed items wanted by other players by giving them tweaks such as increased stregth or stamina. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 8:59 PM EST Email address: sphinx@usaf.org Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Pat Henderson visitor_name_Station: sphinx0 visitor_name_Character: Essa Comment: dont kill this skill like you have done to fletching!!!! ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 9:45 PM EST Email address: stephenmcleod@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: stephenmcleod visitor_name_Station: stephenmcleod visitor_name_Character: maxxon (rodcet nife) Comment: We are putting together another petition on EQ stratics with some suggestions we hammered out.In summary: Brewing *was* broken. It needed tuning. Not a sledge hammer. Why trade skills with no NPC support don't work. 2am-9am there are not enough players to support a player economy-- I frequently play during these hours.The market is very inefficient. Why is it wrong for a 184 hour character who is L3 to have 300pp but okay for a 184 character who is L22 to have 300pp? Tradespeople forgo exp and don't level as fast. A supposedly "twinked" banded L3 character may have spent 30 hours at a skill instead of 30 hours camping wisps.Benefits of profitable trade skills 1) less camping 2) less arguing over camping/killstealing 3) people level slower (and play the game longer and pay you money longer) 4) appeals to people likely to stay longer. 5) bolsters roleplaying 6) bolsters generosity and removes meanspiritedness. 7) creates a player economy-- What do you think I was spending all that money on? I was buying things from other players! How you can fix it for now Change it back to 5 and then adjust the ingredients to cost slightly more and the purchase price to slightly less. The NPC can say something about how too much demand hasraised prices. At the same time, add a farmer NPC who sells at the old prices out in the karanas farms. The time to travel there wipes out the price advantage yet gives people a reason to travel there. How to address trade skills in the future. 1) skill cap at 10xlevel. No one can be a master until L13. 2) determine how much can be made camping monsters at a given level I suspect it is about .75pp/hour/level through about L20. Use this metric to make the trade skills profitable at that rate once they reach "fair" skill level. Some skills would cost longer and more money to get to "fair" and would be more profitable. 3) Remove the "twitch" factor (and reduce wrist injuries) Keeping in mind the profitability above and the rate of increase you desire a skill to have, add a "combine" time. You load your ingrediants. Press combine and a timer appears as for meditation. It takes x seconds to make an item (maybe 30 for trivial up to 1 minute for a hard item perhaps with failure taking less time). During this time-watching the bar slide down, people can socialize. It removes the "twitch factor". If you can only click once per minute- your mousing skills don't matter as much. It lets you-- Verant-- predict the profitablity of a skill per hour. which allows you to set the prices for things to profit at a certain rate per hour and which lets you determine the number of hours it will take a person to advance. I know you guys are constantly badgered and I want you to know that many of us out here want a fun game that we will play a long time and we want to build a relationship based on trust with you. We don't want a monty haul game. We don't want a broken too easy game. We do want a little bit of stability to make rational decisions with. I hope you'll consider these ideas in the spirit that they are given. A working trade system goes a *long* way towards making people happier with your game.You can still have great items that the playes will pay us for. Just give us a floor for when there are no players around and we don't want to camp and argue and hack and slash. ============================================================================ Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 Time: 11:38 PM EST Email address: shamner@bigfoot.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Steve visitor_name_Station: holycow33 visitor_name_Character: Wutanj Comment: You have made brewing into another useless and unprofitable unroleplayable trade. ============================================================================ Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 Time: 1:42 AM EST Email address: willicm@erols.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: chris Williamson visitor_name_Station: Al_ar visitor_name_Character: Aldar Comment: (None) ============================================================================ Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 Time: 2:51 AM EST Email address: giant_cow@hotmail.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Tommy Misenhimer visitor_name_Station: Cutsleeve visitor_name_Character: Sargoth Comment: I'm a master Brewer who wants the Brewing reinstated to what is was before the overhaul. It was the only way my character made profit I was trying to raise enough money for my character to perhaps buy a combine 2h sword, and goto Najena some more, but now I cannot, and cannot even brew for the parties I throw, because I can't make the money back that I put into brewing. Please return it to it's previous state. ============================================================================ Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 Time: 5:51 AM EST Email address: jwillis@wpmedia.com Subject: Brewers Petition visitor_name_Real: Marshall Willis visitor_name_Station: MarWillis visitor_name_Character: Frigenn Comment: (None)